Onepod Podcasts

Vikram

I was watching this guy called Steve Bartlett. He made some company called social chain which sold for 200 million euros or something. He also has a podcast called Diary of a CEO. Anyway, I saw his podcast and he was he's like how I make 1.2 million from this podcast, he was saying these things,

Subu

Sh*t! I don't know what it is! Like, I think once you figure it out, you can't stop making money. I think 1.2 million from ... Okay, I got this a diary of a

Vikram

CEO. So he asked his, like, main dude, draw me up a shopping list of all the gear, I need to make a good podcast with video, you know, not just audio. So the guy, he says it in this podcast, you'll hear it. He says he goes off and comes down with a $4,000 bill. Then he tells him like, Look, I want it to be awesome. How much do I need to really make it awesome? Tell me awesome. So he goes off and comes back with a $40,000 bill. And of course, then he speaks relatively well. And then he edits the mother loving shit out of it.

Subu

Who is paying? Like he has the best editor? Obviously, he has the best in Europe, in the continent, right?

Vikram

Yeah. And so he's got like a good editing people. He does all this stuff. So that's what I'm saying. So rich begets rich. So if you strike rich with something, then you're like, what is this $40,000 Give me the best of the shit. And then you make the best, give it to somebody to edit it. And that bugger will go do awesome job at it. And then you have

Subu

like a social media manager, right? You have like a person, this one who will like really pump the heck out of it and know how to get the top

Vikram

people like us who have not created any content on YouTube, it's a little bit challenging to come up.

Subu

So let me show let me give you the picture of the other end of the spectrum, which is us right. I can't make the shit up, okay, I can't make it up. This, this kind of thing happens. So at the other end of spectrum, is I over paid the last urgent care bill by a few dollars. And this anthem sent me a check for $3.85, $3.85 I'm actually not gonna let go of this, I gotta go and cash this check for $3.85 that doesn't end there. So it's been sitting on my desk for a while. And I'm like, I gotta do this, I got to do this, you know, I got to scan this thing. And I got to cash this check. And I always keep my office door lock, because otherwise the kid is gonna come in and mess things up. So one morning, it was open, and he came inside. And that I came and this check has been sitting on my desk for like a few weeks now. Yeah, it's always in front of me, so I can't miss it. Right? So I come and sit down for work after dropping him to school. And then I'm like, Where the hell did the check, go? Like, I don't want my $3 check. And then I started looking around for it. And I couldn't find it and then it's like, you know what, whatever. It's three bucks. I it's my fault that I procrastinated. My kid got to it first. And then that evening I changed his diaper and I opened up the diaper pail to put this dirty diaper, poopy diaper in and I see the check in his diaper pail. I fished it out of there I was really happy to have a second chance at my $3 and brought it back to my desk Recently your become your older kiddo. He started his first grade right?

Vikram

Yeah, I can't believe it's already been like six years. But here he is.

Subu

And I have to imagine this is some sort of a big milestone. You know, not only for him but all of you right the whole family it's sort of a thing because I would imagine that you know, graduating from kindergarten to first it sort of people around start looking at him as no longer a toddler i mean he's like a little boy now who is out there in the world and

Vikram

yeah, he has a great assigned to him like first grade. That's the beginning of say his formal education in a way right? All the way through many grades that he's going to go through and then college and undergrad, University. I don't know how far he's going to take it. But there seems to be a clearly charted territory or line of progress from this point on, which is why I believe it's a big milestone.

Subu

Apart from your kid graduating to first grade, even Sam, your wife also started teaching in her school. She was previously in a tech job and now she's a teacher. So there is also a big change. So what are you guys thinking what's going on in your head.

Vikram

So although I say first grade it really is a Montessori school. So in a Montessori school, they don't really have grades, you know, it's a mixed age group of children. And so here's an actually the elementary program. So the elementary program has kids from ages six through 12. So it's a mixed age group. Still in public education standards, he is in first grade. A lot of people that my child is friends with, for example, transition out of Montessori schooling, and they join public schooling around this age because they can go to first grade in their local elementary school. And this seems to be the decision by a lot of parents because for one reason, private Montessori education is expensive. And the other reason is that a lot of these schools have a great school rating. So parents try to buy some homes in good school districts that have a good grade school rating. So this is actually a driving factor in where a lot of people live, and where they buy homes and for how much money they buy homes. And because these great schools rating affect home prices so much in the US, they tend to drive up to home prices because of this good schooling district available there. Because obviously, supply goes down and demand goes up. So it drives the prices up. And a lot of parents put a lot of effort in their careers because they need to have the income to keep up with this high mortgage levels, so that they can go to this good school, right. And I have actually heard parents who have told me before, that this elementary school acts as a feeder to say Harvard University, which to me is something I cannot process in my head entirely because they think

Subu

it's an upside, but you sort of think it's some sort of a downside. In fact,

Vikram

I'm not sure what to think of it. The reason is, I don't see a direct connection between elementary and Harvard University, I don't. But that being said, I gave it some thought yesterday, and I was thinking how this link is established and why parents think that this is also important to have a good school district rating. And it occurred to me that children who go to elementary schools in a good school district have a better chance of getting into middle school with also a good grade school rating. Which is apparently supposed to be better, we'll come to that entirely different topic, because I don't know what exactly the grade school rating means, and how indicative it is of a good education. That's a different talking point, for sure. But then I figured if a child goes to a good Middle School, the child will then progress into a good High School. Right, which eventually leads into a good university admission, because there's also this thing called reputation that universities look at, if this child is from a reputed High School, colleges tend to be more accepting of these students. Right? Correct. So this is where I think the pressure to join a good university has built up over a long time, and puts a lot of pressure on children as they progress through the schooling system. Yeah, so this is, this is what has been on my mind about education, especially since my older one has started first grade.

Subu

Right? Yeah, yeah, I can imagine that. I mean, it's, it's not only a pressure. So it's like a loop, you know, you're the parents, and they move to a different neighborhood so that their children can go to a better school. And in the process, they taking up the putting pressure on themselves, to make more money, or keep up the amount they're earning. And you know, and pay all this heavy mortgage and all that. So they are increasing the stress on themselves. And indirectly, they are putting stress on the children because the the pressure to perform is higher. So the parents at the back of the mind, even though they're not thinking about this voluntarily, but there has to be a notion at the back of the mind of the parent that look we making the sacrifice, we taking up all of this extra burden, in order to put a put you like, put this kid in a better school and there is a pressure on the kid to perform and perform essentially means a get good grades, right?

Vikram

Yeah, it is academically oriented, for sure. good grades, good test scores because of standardized testing. The kids in these schools are expected to generate good test scores to keep the good rating of their school up. Yeah, yeah. And as they go to colleges, a lot of the schools also look at extracurricular activities. So in addition to all this academic pressures, kids are forced to pursue instrument playing or sport or sometimes all of the above.

Subu

They got to be good at chess. They got to be good. I had no Taekwondo or some other martial art.

Vikram

Exactly. So the building up a college resume is what education is tending to become. And that is a lot of pressure for a child to perform well in everything, and still do well in academics. I feel like there is a lost childhood in this whole process of taking competitive exams, and competing for something that is not even within the grasp of the child yet, I think college is something that happens much later in education. And everything is geared towards meeting that goal.

Subu

It's pretty unfortunate in some ways, because, you know, we do live in a hyper competitive world, right? Especially if you take a place like California, right? If you're in one of these tech hubs, like Bay Area, or San Diego, as a young parent, right, my kid turned two and a half year old a few months ago, and we started him off in a preschool. And when that was happening, I remember I was pretty stressed, you know, it was my wife, who did all the work of, you know, researching schools and talking to teachers and picking a good one. But I just, but I couldn't help but sit there and be stressed through all of this, right? Because I kind of felt that man, I am responsible for this little person. And the decisions I make now could hurt or help him, you know, many years in the future, we're gonna think about it from that point of view, I can see how I overcompensate. I'm like, Hey, you know, I don't want to leave any stone unturned. I want to make sure my kid has all the necessary skills, so that he can make a good living and have a comfortable life in the future. And so in the process of thinking like that, before you know it, I have put my kid into a very rigorous School, which has no focus on sports, it is very academically focused. And then I have him enrolled in five after school programs. And the poor kid is stressed starting at six years old, and he's like, in the first grade itself, he's like, he's doing way too much way more than he should be. And, and all this because of a certain fear that I as a parent have, that I don't want him to fall short, it's sort of a difficult position to be in,

Vikram

I feel, that's an exactly accurate thing to say. Because even parents who do put their child into competitive schools competitive sport, and any activity that builds up a college resume are doing it out of the goodness of their heart, they want their child to do well, they want their children to have the best of opportunity, right? To get into the best of universities, to get into the best of colleges, and to eventually have the shot at the best of jobs, and a comfortable life. So it is coming from a good place, that's for sure. At some point, we have to decide what is important, as a parent for ourselves, and what is important for the child? And what it is that you exactly want out of the process. And by this I mean, what is your ultimate goal for your child? Do you want your child to become the world's most top surgeon? Or do you want your child to become Chief Justice of the United States? Or a CEO of a company? What is it that you want? The other way of looking at it is do you want your child to just have a sense of happiness, be happy with what they do? It doesn't matter what they pursue, their decisions are their own. They may choose other professions, art, music, which are traditionally not associated with, you know, high pay, although some musicians and artists do reach high levels of perfection in their art. It could be that your child is the one who becomes that artist or that musician. But sometimes as a parent, it is hard to acknowledge the fact that your child does not want to do something that is obviously a high paying career that you perceive would be easier for the child to do in order to have a comfortable life. Yeah, yeah, that's the hard choice.

Subu

I see the fallacy in the way I'm thinking right i mean that hey, you know, I don't want to leave any stone unturned and I, I want to make sure my child has all the opportunities are available to him and I want to maximize his opportunities for his future. I see the fallacy with that point of thinking because if I keep thinking about his future, right from when he is like two and a half years old, then at the end of it, I will end up with a teenager, probably he stressed out he suffers from anxiety and depression. He wouldn't have enjoyed his childhood. And at the end of it, my sole focus would be to make sure that he can earn enough money. So That's what it doesn't matter if it's a doctor or whatever it is, but at the root of it, I want to make sure he can earn enough money, right? So if that's my sole focus, then I'm not thinking about raising a compassionate and responsible adult. And instead of it I mean, I've given him all the skills to earn money. But if you look at his personality, probably he is going to be a complete asshole, really. So I got to keep that in mind as I as I raise him that it not only his I mean, it's not just his future that that is at stake here, right? It's more about am I raising a an adult who is like responsible and compassionate generally, who knows the world around him who sort of kind and things like that.

Vikram

So what you're saying is you are more focused on creating a balanced citizen of the world, who is compassionate kind to others, loves doing the kind of work that he wants to pursue, it could be anything, but he has to love working. I think that's an important part of everybody's life, you have to have a profession, you have to enjoy doing it. And part of the success comes from the fact that you very you like what you do. Because if you don't like what you do, there is no way you're going to be successful at it. You have to like what you do, right? Yeah, as a parent, it is useful to encourage a child to seek out what it is that they actually enjoy. Yeah. That is one perspective on parenting. I'm not saying one is correct over the other. But here, let me ask you this. What do you think parents should do? Apart from schooling, to raise a compassionate and well rounded individual?

Subu

Yeah, when I see my friends who have slightly older kids, right, and I see their outlook on what the role of a school should be. And when I sit down and think about what I think the role of a school should be, my default tendency is that I expect the school to do too much, I think, Hey, I'm paying so much money for the school. And I'm very quick to be angry at them. For you know, not giving this kid so much outside time, right, and the kid is getting only an hour of playtime in a day, I'm quick to be angry at them. This kind of an outlook that I'm experiencing is common among parents, I can argue that we expect a little too much out of our schools, the kid is in school from 9am to 5pm. And after that, we put him in some sort of a after school program, say chest swimming, whatever it is. And it's easy to think that, hey, if I put my kid in these right places, and that's my job is done. I mean, it's crazy to think that way that you know, you're done your job as a parent. When I look at our parents, and I look at my parents, I spent a ton of time at your place. I've observed your parents a lot. And I remember just watching your dad, right, just watching your dad was very influential. I mean, it did change my habits as a teenager. If, for example, your dad was perpetually curious. He worked in human resources, I remember at one point in time, but he would read a book on Java programming, right? He would learn new stuff all the time.

Vikram

Yeah, he was a completely self taught computer guy exactly is a

Subu

completely self taught coder. And then he would in his 50s, he decided he decides that, hey, I'm going to pick up a violin and learn a new instrument. So you know, we don't have to do anything for the kid or with the kid, right? I mean, just doing the right things at home. So when the kid is at home, I tell myself, Look, don't be on the phone. When the kid is around, you. Either play with him or do your own things like you know, be a positive influence on them. And then, because he's watching you, or he or she is your kid is watching you all the time. And that is one way of teaching them how to grow up.

Vikram

That's a very good point. Because with the influx of social media, there's always work emails, parents are constantly on devices. And when they do want to relax, many parents do watch TV in the presence of their child to play video games. man heard through the grapevine that some parents do play violent video games in front of their child. Because I hear things that my son talks about to me and like, how did you find that out? Weird How do you know?

Subu

You know, okay, that guy's dad is playing Call of Duty all the time.

Vikram

Yeah, seriously, and he's playing violent video games and the friends talk to each other. And then I hear it through the grapevine and I'm like, how do you know that? It's weird. So it's like you say, instead of spending time in the hours that your child is awake, because children do need to sleep 10 to 12 hours, which is another problem. I think that children are not sleeping enough these days because of the influx of devices and things like that. While they are awake, like you say it is very good. If you can do what you do. You play an instrument, play it in front of them. Yeah, you want to they want to play to give them a turn at playing it. Do you do woodworking, you know give them a nail and a hammer. You'd be surprised They don't really smash their finger and you really be surprised, they do a very good job near putting nails in wood. And my kids do this all the time. And they actually develop hand control. I think gardening is another great way of teaching compassion. Because you have to care for a plant, it gives you food, you know where food comes from, right? from the grocery store, you grow it, you eat it, there's a certain satisfaction to that, taking care of pets, it teaches you compassion. So there are things that you can do, and teach younger children, how to become compassionate individuals that is entirely out of academics. And this is all an essential part of their childhood and their life. And not to mention doing chores, I make the kids fold their own laundry, because they have to put away their laundry, they have to keep their environment clean. Because when they grow up, they are going to have to do this, they are going to have to keep their own place clean. And this is something they have to be instilled from a very young age, regardless of their education. So in my opinion, and I think this is what you are saying to that there are other things one can do to make a well rounded individual, no child apart from education and extracurricular activities, right?

Subu

Yeah, yeah, just being the person you want them to be.

Vikram

That's a very good way to put it.

Subu

From the discussion. Right? One of my takeaways is that, you know, whatever I do for my kids, like these programs I put him into, or, you know, whatever it is, I shouldn't keep thinking of it, as I'm doing something for his future. You know, if I put him in an after school program, I mean, I shouldn't keep thinking of things as opportunities for the future and planning for the future. A part of me should also keep thinking about what can I do to enrich his time right now, and not keep thinking of securing his future? we as parents and being in this hyper competitive world, in some ways, we've been trained to think this way we have been trained to perpetually keep planning for the future. I guess it's part of being human, I think, you know, but it's like, we only do it and are rarely, like we ourselves don't live in the present. And we are training our kids and not letting them live in the present as well.

Vikram

Yeah, that's a that's a very interesting thing. That's true, right. And I want to also mention, one other thing is that, although a lot of education is, like you say, planned for the future, the college admission, and success in a career, all this starts on basic building blocks. And what I mean by that is, a lot of people don't focus very much on early childhood education, they really don't. They think that from the age of zero to six, yeah, you're just in kindergarten, daycare, I don't know, watch TV and play with toys. But honestly, that portion of a child's life is full of change. Think about your child when he or she is born. They can't do anything for themselves. But by the age of six, they're fully developed with full motor skills, with a complete understanding of language and grammar, able to negotiate social situations, they have friends, they get upset, they get angry, they feel happy, they have all these swathes of emotions. Yeah, and unlike any other species, humans build things from nothing. What I mean to say is, when a cow is born, it pretty much starts working in a short span of time. And the cows, you know, mooing or whatever, a calf will do the same thing as a grown cow would write their language does not evolve, they do what they do, but humans have a great sense of transformation from the age of zero to six. And in fact, psychologists have written about this period of child's life and how it is so significant. Since we go to Montessori schools and my wife is a Montessori teacher, too. I've heard her discuss with me, the planes of development, basically zero to six is a plane of development. And six to 12 is another plane of development. 12 to 18 is another plane and 18 to 24 is finally the adult plane after which you are a mature adult. So now each plane can be subdivided into two smaller age groups, like each three years makes a big difference, right? Zero to Three, you cannot really tell your child what to do. They really do not process what you're telling them, they have an inner guide, they follow and they do it out of their own need to do it. It's not like they know they're doing it, it's not intentional. They just do what their inner guide tells them. And so each phase of development feeds on to the next. So if you have a good zero to three, and a good three to six, that sets up the child for a very good six to 12 and that will set up the child for a good 12 to 18 and now we are talking about colleges, you know so the whole thing is important. It's not like you can do whatever you want. But then suddenly, you expect your child to get into these universities. I think education is a is a long process. And it starts actually very young. It's as young as even two, I would argue.

Subu

That's a good point. I mean, that's a really, I think you laid it out pretty well. You know, because it's very easy to think that from zero to five, he's just a baby. And all he needs is a nanny, you think that oh, you know, he's not old enough to engage with him yet. But you've, you're sort of losing valuable time, if you're not engaging with your child and taking him outdoors.

Vikram

Yeah, at that age, they need to explore, or they are based on a lot of touch and sense sensory activities. So take them out, make them feel the flowers, smell the flowers, pick up rocks, observe the bugs, give them little things to do around the house, they love doing it. And I think that develops a wholesome child for the next phase of their life. So it's all important is what I'm saying.

Subu

One of the things that really bothers me is that in present day, education, right, what we are tending towards is essentially a template for raising a child, for example, you know, your friends, or acquaintances who move to a different neighborhood so that their children could go to a different public school, and you said that that schools are essentially feeder schools for Harvard. Okay, as a parent, you feel like, being a good parent means raising your child according to this template, right? Yep, sort of putting your kid in a box, right from first grade, you have already pre decided these milestones that this kid has to hit, it just feels really sad.

Vikram

You know, where it comes from, in my opinion, you have one shot at doing this. And you there is no feedback loop. Basically, you cannot tell from a year or two of education. If it's going really well or a little bit well, I think you can tell if it's going really badly. But you have no way of really gauging your own progress or your child's progress in an quantitative manner. And the other problem is that it's not like you can go to a brewery and sample beers, right? You can sample education firms. Like do you want to do various schools of education, you know, there's Waldorf, there's Montessori there is public education. And each country has different styles, like the US has project based learning. And a lot of Southeast Asian countries India included, has by rote memorization. So there are all these different styles. And there is no way for us to try each one out to understand what this has to offer a child before we commit to it. So we have to go with the flow. And oftentimes, seeing other people do something. And working out for them gives you a lesser chance of failure and you follow the template

Subu

Yeah. That's a good point, you just see a you know what has worked for people and you just take the proven track. And before you know it, you have cities full of children who essentially have been raised to do the the one singular task.

Vikram

This is getting seriously dystopian. This is George Orwell book, I'm sure this is a George Orwell. Yeah, incredible, right. But it's interesting that, you know, education forms differ based on where we are in geographical locations, right? What do you think our experience was? We both studied in India and grew up in schools in the 90s. What do you think we went through? Or what is your experience.

Subu

India during the 80s, and 90s, it was a strange time present day India is very different from how it was when we were growing up in the 90s. But I don't have a very favorable opinion of our schooling experience. It didn't hurt us or help us, I kind of feel like it was sort of a, I'm being very harsh when I say this, but I kind of feel it was a lost decade, essentially. So we started first grade in 1990-91. And then we finished 10th grade in 2000. Right? I call it a sort of a lost decade, because all education starting from the first grade. You know, the purpose was, you would be taught some curriculum, which is established by the central government, through the year. You'll be taught this curriculum through the year. And all that mattered was the test that you took at the end of the year, and what marks or what grade you got on those tests. And this started at first grade, right? So at the end of the year, once you've taken your test, you're given a rank. And I think that's very brutal on the kids because the only thing you're trained to do is for the next decade, you're going to have this number next to your name and which is going to essentially tell people what you are worth and your main job as a child is keep improving that number. Even for parents, right? I don't think parents ever questioned, hey, what's being taught in the school? Or I mean, is your kid learning something useful? all that mattered was when you bring your report card back home at the end of the year, when your mom takes a look at it. If you don't have good marks, then you get a beating, saying, Hey, you got to do better than this.

Vikram

That happens quite often. Yes.

Subu

Yeah, you really haven't appreciated anything that you've learned. You've learned 10 years of incredible amount of Indian rich history, the basics of sciences, physics, chemistry, and math. And you have no appreciation for any of this. One of my subjects that bothered me the most was English. Oh, my God. I mean, how could somebody screw up English education so much, right, I remember when we were in 10th grade, we had English had two parts, it had Poetry and Literature, we had this book called Pageant of Poems. And for the literature, we had Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice, man that used to stress me out so much, because the idea was not to appreciate poetry, or it was not to learn how Shakespeare wrote these plays. But it was more about you got to prepare for these convoluted questions that will be asked in the exam. And give them the right answer so that you get the max marks. So it was not about learning Shakespeare's or poetry. It was all about expecting some convoluted question in the exam, and making sure you prepare to answer those convoluted questions. So it is very stressful. I mean, I hated English, actually, at the end of it. And it's really unfortunate. I mean, writers and stuff are not made this way. I mean, like, you know, my wife has a few friends who are writers. And I think they all are mostly self learned, I would imagine, because that kind of interest doesn't come out of education.

Vikram

I would argue that our education system that we went through as children is geared towards making you good at taking exams, they teach you take exams, not really teach you the subject matter at hand. And I have the same experience with Hindi and we joked about it in the last episode. I was also terrified of Hindi, which is another language problem. It's funny, we both have language problems. And it doesn't help that teachers in our school actually said, Oh, wait, you find this hard in sixth grade, you find this hard? Or just wait till you get to ninth grade? Just see what you have to learn that. And I'm like, Oh, my God, right now, what am I going to do, then I'm going to really fail out really hard, you know, so it is frightening. And so what a self fulfilling prophecy now you think you're bad at something. And now you're getting get worse at it. Same way, in the ranking system, you mentioned, you get a bad rank, right from first grade, and you start to believe that you are not a good person, or you're not smart. And because you are who you believe this starts to fulfill its own prophecy, and you never get better. So the ranking system is is quite demotivating to anybody who's not in the top rank system, right? And no, but everybody can't be in the top.

Subu

Yeah, we were talking about how we all put too much focus on planning for the future instead of letting them enjoy the present. And that was totally the case, even in the 90s. I mean, you're right from first grade, everything was geared towards making sure that you know, at some point you can make a living. It didn't matter what you did from first grade until 10th grade, you know, your, your formative years of your life. It didn't matter what you did all that was you're preparing for a future what future I don't know, but some future. Okay, with every story, there is some exception. So I sort of beat up on our education a little bit. But there are some exceptions. Like for example, in 10th grade, we had this geography teacher called the Dinakar Wilson, I don't know if you remember. Yeah. I mean, I love the guy, right? If I remember one thing from subjects we learned in school is geography because he was the head of the NCC, the National Cadet Corps, or sort of the head of the scouts. And he was a practical guys because he used to take these scouts out camping, you know, teach them how to survive in the wild, and teach them how to read maps, and use a compass and things like that. So when he taught geography, he was very practical, in the sense that he gave us an appreciation of how topographical maps are drawn. I remember that, you know, when we when I would go out with family to some sort of hiking spot when I see the hills, the whole topographical map, kind of a pictures comes over, you know, I sort of start appreciating these things around me, there is a diamond in the rough. So what

Vikram

he gave you was context to your learner. And that is what sealed the learning for you in your mind, right? For me, it is in seventh grade. It was a physics teacher called Mr. Fernandez, who is known to be very strict teacher, but he actually changed my life and sciences. And I can attribute all my work that I do that mean technical work today or I'm in science and engineering. All attributed to him because he did a really good job of explaining physics in seventh grade. And I remember that the only thing I studied was physics. And I got really good scores in physics, not not so much in everything else, especially Hindi. But I did read a lot of physics. Yeah, and that was awesome. And I also remember in in 10th grade, we had this computer teacher called Mr. Chanakeshava, was his that's his name, right? Yeah. He was so good at it, he used to give us these little puzzles that you had to solve. And he asked us to write a program for finding out prime numbers. And it was called the Sieve of Eratosthenes. So we had to write that algorithm, in what language I can't remember now. Basic, I think it was basic, okay. To find the prime numbers, and that was life changing. I'm like this process, this Sieve of Eratosthenes gives you all these prime numbers, that was like life changing moment. So that's where a lot of things are made, you know. And all our careers are based on kind of random decisions, like why did we decide to do what we do, right? It's kind of random, like, you just decide that I think I like this, I'll do it. And then it's a path, you can never change it somewhere in seventh eighth grade or something, you decide that you either like the sciences or you don't you like the humanities, and you roll with that for the rest of your life?

Subu

Well, I mean, so the thing is that our experience through the 90s right now I've sort of passed a very harsh verdict on our education.

Vikram

This was based on 30 years ago. I don't know how things are now, but we'll, we'll figure that out later.

Subu

Yeah. So our discussion would be incomplete. If we don't analyze, you know, why was it that way? Right. Why did society decide to teach kids or why did all this happen? And I have one theory, okay. So here's my theory. Now, the kind of rote learning by memorization or rote learning the kind of education that we had in the 90s, it's not specific to India, right? If you actually look at it, this problem playing most of the developing countries now, you know, this is the problem in any country in Southeast Asia, Sri Lanka, Brazil, any developing country. And back then I remember I mean, if you look at the West, if you look at Europe and America, they had a very practical form of education starting from elementary school. And that's why a lot of research, a lot of research labs, a lot of smart kids and entrepreneurs came out of US, because kids were taught in a practical way, right from elementary school. Now, the problem in a developing country is that India opened up its economic borders only in the early to mid 90s. Right. Until then, it was a very tough place to live. And most of society, including our parents, essentially were lower middle class. And what lower middle class means is that you're essentially trying to make ends meet, you're living paycheck to paycheck. And parents are generally under stress, because you don't have any safety net. It's not like our you know, our grandparents had much to leave behind for, like our parents, right. And so there was never a safety net. So my dad got his education, when he started waking working, he had like, zero rupees in his bank account, there's a lot of pressure that if my parents lost a job, then they immediately would not be able to meet the requirements of the family. And amidst all this, because parents want their kids to do better than they did, they want a better future for the kids, they would stretch themselves thin, and send them to private schools, like my, my brother and I, we were sent to private schools, which back then was an expensive place to send your kid. But my parents decided to stretch themselves thin, because they felt like, Hey, this is what we need to do in order to ensure that our kids have a bright future. So when you're in this high stress environment, as a parent, you're looking for any signals of success. In case of the children, the signal of success is doing well in the test and making sure you have a top five or top 10 rank, or making sure that you're constantly improving your rank as you go from first grade to 10th grade. Because of this high stress environment, you're looking at life with a very strict and narrow lens. If you got say, like the fifth rank in your third grade, and then you drop down to ninth rank in the fourth grade, you take that as a big failure, because like the only signal of success you have for the whole year is how did did my kid improve or not? And the minute you you see your kid fail, and then you're like, Oh my god, man, this is very bad because I need to do something because I need to stress this upon my kid because if he continues this trend, then he's not going to have a safety net. And even your parents also know that they can't really leave much behind for you.

Vikram

And to think about it. From your parent's point of view. They're already stretching themselves thin. They're paying beyond their means already to send you to this good school, and they want to see some output out of it to justify their decision to send you to the school. And when you don't meet that, it is stressful for them. Because they now imagine that the you will also end up with a lack of a safety net, or suffer in the way they did to get to where they are today. And they obviously want better for you. So that's where it comes from. Right?

Subu

That's where it comes from. Yeah. And I think my hypothesis is correct. The reason I think it is correct is because I was speaking to my friends who now live in Bangalore, who have kids who are in like, fifth and sixth grade and so on. And I was asking them, Hey, you know, what do you think about the education that your kids have right now compared to what we did, right. And she was telling me that the opportunities in education are incredible. Now, it's not like the way it used to be. I mean, in fact, the schools that we went to, in the 90s, were considered the cream of the crop, right? These were Catholic private schools established by the British in the 1800s, for your 11th and 12th. The school that you went to Bishop Cotton's It was called the Eton of the East.

Vikram

Yeah, Eton of the East.

Subu

These are very prestigious schools. And she was telling me that a lot of parents don't want to send the kids to those schools anymore, because they haven't really changed that much from back then I mean, they sort of still have, they haven't evolved from what they were. And instead, you have a ton of schools, right? With the different philosophies. So if you want your kid to focus on STEM education, then there are schools, a private school for that. And if you want your kid to be more focused on outdoors, and arts, then there are schools to cater for those kinds of parents as well. Of course, these schools are expensive, they are still out of reach for most people. But I'm happy to see this kind of education change. And they have at least two periods per day, which is two hours per day, essentially, which is focused on outdoor play and crafts, and art and music and things like that. And if you come back, we had that two hours per day, right? And growing up, right? Right from first grade, we had one class per week,

Vikram

we had one hour a week of sport, a one hour a week of music.

Subu

That's it, right? Instead now these children have like two hours per day, which is great. Everything is project based. And there is no rote education by memorization at all. There is no rank based system, the brutal rank pay system is not that like you know, your kids just get some sort of a great like an A, or a plus or whatever it is. So you know, it's not like, it's not, it's not no longer like the rank based system. And it seems very hopeful, it seems like children are really enjoying going to school and learning new things and creating new things with their own hands. That's awesome. These kinds of schools are still expensive. Public schools, and the cheaper private schools still are not there yet. But I'm hoping that it'll all bubble down and it will become the norm in the future.

Vikram

That's nice. Now actually going, like Fast Forward immediately. 30 years, right, coming to today's world, after this whole COVID debacle that the whole planet Earth has faced. I know all these parents are trying to get their kids into these great colleges and universities. But so much of the education last year happened online. And it got me thinking like, really, what is the need, in today's world, to go into a college for in person education. And that when I The more I thought about it, I realized that there are some professions that you can do online education just as well as going in person. like think about computer programming, or some amount of hardware that can probably be taught online for the most part. And also, a lot of these companies now really are not looking for a generic university education because they know exactly what kind of people they're looking for, and the kind of skill sets they are looking for. So they much rather, that the candidates have those courses under their belt, even if he had like an online course from Udemy. And that gives a lot more value to these companies. Contrast that with somebody who's a doctor, you don't want a doctor who got an online degree on in medicine you want to have gone in. And if it's a surgeon, you want the surgeon to have operated on cadavers and got experience and done a residency in a hospital and there's a place for in school education, but I think a lot of it has now changed in given of what we can do in the new age in terms of technology and stuff like that. So what do you think these parents nowadays putting too much emphasis on going to these colleges?

Subu

Yeah, I thought about this a little bit. A lot of my colleagues at work their children are now in undergrad, right? They're doing their undergrad education in these US universities. And I asked him, How much is the fees? And like, how much does it cost you to send two kids to college and it is already very expensive,

Vikram

and is getting more expensive every year, right? Because rise of college costs has far out, outpaced inflation in the US,

Subu

or salaries here or salaries. If you can't afford to pay for your kids graduate studies, then you have to make them take a loan, they come out at 21 and 22, with huge loans tied to the back. And the outlook also is very bad, right? In the sense that by the time our kids are in college, like 10-15 years later, if the same trend continues, it's going to be incredibly expensive. It's going to be like $100-$120,000 per year, for a four year program, you're talking about, like half a million dollars, which is, which is this one kid? Yeah, two kids its like a million dollars to get what, I mean, like, I mean, it's pretty crazy. So I have a feeling that since we do live in a capitalistic society, I think the market will speak for itself. If these colleges keep increasing their tuition like this, you know, once your kid is out of high school, the companies are already saying that, look, we don't necessarily need you to do a traditional four year degree, as long as you have these skills, and you're you're able to show adequate proficiency in all these skills that the companies want, they will happily take you and you are. So you're already ahead of someone who's graduated from, say, University of Southern California or Harvard or Yale, because you don't have like a half a million dollar loan tagged to your back.

Vikram

And on top of that a lot of these companies put out these challenges and they want to see who does well in those challenges. Because they are already in line with what the company wants, as opposed to somebody with a traditional college education coming out with a lot more theoretical knowledge then applied problem solving in you know, the coding world. Yeah,

Subu

so I have a feeling that, you know, certain disciplines like medicine, maybe law, you know, those kinds of stuff probably are still you know, the Harvard Law still got to be popular, you still it's got to be like a very prestigious institution and so on. It's going to cost you a ton of money to send your kid there. But I think that certain disciplines in have already proven to not require a traditional education. This is the computer engineering, things like even marketing, like MBA and things like that, which is so expensive. Yeah, getting real life on the job training for sales and marketing and things like that is much more valuable than paying like a ton of money and going for four or five year course.

Vikram

Yeah, I think so. good discussion on education. We call it a wrap. Yeah,

Subu

let's call it on that.

Vikram

Okay. Cool. Talk to you later.

Subu

Thanks for listening. You can find transcripts and show notes at www.halflife.show.

Vikram

We'd love for you to leave us a review on your favorite podcast app. And also write to us on Twitter @halflifeshow

3: The Future of Education